Fw: path to lispos ???

Wolfram Rinke wolfram.rinke@kes-adaptive-systems.com
Fri, 20 Mar 1998 19:14:37 +0100

Here it is!

Jordan wrote

-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: Jordan Henderson <jordan@Starbase.NeoSoft.COM>
An: Wolfram Rinke <wolfram.rinke@kes-adaptive-systems.com>
Datum: Freitag, 20. März 1998 18:02
Betreff: Re: path to lispos ???

>I agree.  If Richard Coleman is still listening I would like him to
>speak directly on the subject of his original goals on starting this
>project.  I seem to remember that the original idea was to make a freely
>available system which was similar in design and usefullness to the
>Symbolics/Explorer/Lambda environments.
>I'm concerned that this project has been hijacked by a lot of
>competing interests that insist that there is no value in doing
>a LispOS if it's not a "completely reflective" system (whatever that
>really means), or doesn't have an integrated persistent object system
>(whatever that really means) or it's not integrated top-to-bottom
>(whatever THAT really means).
>What has worked in the past on collaborative Internet projects?
>I'm not sure what has worked, but I know that endless speculation
>and wrangling over features has not worked, not on the LispOS
>project and not on the Tunes project.
>I feel that Rainer has listed a number of important goals and has
>stated a number of clearcut sub-projects that motivated people could
>start on immediately.  It's not clear to anyone that the result of
>executing Rainer's list would be that super academic-buzzword-compliant
>ultra-flexible earth shakingly revolutionary system that some people
>seem to think is the goal, but I do think that having the Infrastructure
>that the execution of these sub-projects would provide would imply the
>existence of an environment where more ambitious projects could thrive.
>It is surprising when someone on this list says something like "I think
>we can all agree that..." and we are immediately treated to a number of
>differing views which don't agree with each other, but I'm going to
>make one of these far reaching statements now.  I think we can all
>agree that we want a better computing paradigm that discards a lot
>of the baggage from historical mistakes and narrow ways of viewing
>problems, we just don't agree what intermediate steps are necessary
>to get there.  I feel some are focused on building the "ultimate"
>solution from the start, while others just want better CL tools.
>From a practical standpoint, I feel the project lacks leadership.  This
>leadership could come by widespread acknowledgement of authority to
>establish the "benevolent dictatorship" that some are calling for, or
>by the authority that comes with accomplishment (someone writing something
>substantial, the Linux model).  However it comes about, leadership would
>help us focus our efforts.  In the meantime, it wouldn't hurt to just
>start on Rainer's list.
>Unfortunately, some of the more important goals (from my perspective) can't
>be accomplished without leadership (who will be "officially" responsible
>maintaining lispos.org, for example).
>Can we at least agree we need someone to work on "promotional"
>(lispos.org, circulating drafts of position papers, regularly posting
>to the appropriate newsgroups, perhaps a project symbol that we could
>people to put on their web pages which links to www.lispos.org, etc.)?  Or
>we concerned that if we empower someone (or some group) in this way that
>the project will be driven to too lofty or too narrow goals and will not be
>something we can support?
>-Jordan Henderson
>> Your are absolute right! If LispOS wants to be successfull,  do it that
>> We have been working on TI Lisp machines for many years, doing customer
>> project. This machine (like Symbolics or LMI) had/have already versions
of a LispOS and LispVM
>> implemented in microcode. ;-)
>> If you want to have a successfull LispOS clone one of them and bring it
to widespread HW platforms.
>> Run LispOS on top of NT and UNIX. Integrate it with the WWW.
>> Good luck!
>> Wolfram Rinke
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Rainer Joswig [SMTP:joswig@lavielle.com]
>> Sent: Friday, March 20, 1998 1:56 AM
>> To: lispos@math.gatech.edu
>> Subject: path to lispos ???
>> At 15:07 19.03.98 -0500, you wrote:
>> >On a purely social level, I think that any project trying to design an
>> >operating systems from scratch over the Internet is likely to fail.
>> >Copying an OS is simple:
>> You could try to implement something along the lines of the
>> Interlisp environment (this already exists as an emulation
>> for the PC) or the Lisp machines of MIT heritage
>> (LMI Lambda, TI Explorer, Symbolics, ...). But this
>> is difficult. You could also look at Apple's now defunct Newton OS.
>> >hundreds of potential volunteers. It is much better to clone something
>> >that someone else has already designed (as in Linux).
>> Yes, you are right on this one. But this is also one of
>> the **************big************* weaknesses of Linux:
>> it is just a copy. (A copy of something I'm not a particular
>> fan of.)
>> Some random thoughts:
>> - make an overview of what is freely available for Lisp
>>   (implementations, GUI code, applications, tools, ...).
>> - take care of the public available Lisp code of choice.
>>   The best start for a CL-based system currently is CMU CL, IMHO.
>> - document. Document. DOCUMENT. ****DOCUMENT****!!!!!!
>> - brush up code that is available and desirable, but not actively
>>   maintained (defsystem, UIMS code, ...).
>> - set up a web site: www.lispos.org . Don't use
>>   Put everything you have well documented on the web site. You can
>>   not afford to lose people by bad documentation (GUILE currently has
>>   no real documentation - a big mistake). The Symbolics Lisp machine
>>   had very good documentation. Don't care less.
>> - identify people with time. Assign responsibilities (takes care about
the docs,
>>   ensures the web site, maintains the file server, compares the
>>   implementations, ...)
>> - write a position paper. Circulate widely. Try to get donations
>>   source, man power, ...). Provide regular updates on the project
>>   state. Remind people every month/week about this project. Every
>>   CS student should know about it.
>> - start implementing an interface (telnet server with vtxxx, CL-HTTP
>>   access, X-based GUI (with editor, listener, inspector, command
>>   backtrace, HTML browser, ...), ...).
>>   Maybe something along the lines of a CL-based Emacs-environment. Then
>>   the Lisp development system will also be everybody's favorite
>>   editor environment.
>> - Implement a CL-HTTP-based chat system for the developers.
>> - implement extensive introspective documentation access
>>   (class graphs, package overviews, method overviews, apropos,
>>   describe, documentation, ...)
>> - what about storing and retrieving objects?
>> - start implementing TCP/IP services
>> -- write a mail server (SMTP, POP, IMAP).
>> -- write a pop mail client.
>> -- write a DNS server
>> -- write a DNS client
>> - document. Document. DOCUMENT. ****DOCUMENT****!!!!!!
>> - write a file browser (like the Mac finder, ...).
>> - Start porting packages (SK8, ...).
>> - implement a more sophisticated defsystem (with patches, CLOS-based,
>>   versions, access rights, web interface, ...).
>> - Reimplement C-based software in Lisp. Make the code clearer and
>>   better documented (easy).
>> - develop access methods to databases.
>> - start writing a kernel.
>>   - memory allocation
>>   - process scheduling
>>   - security
>> - develop a file system
>> ...