Sorry, my last post was terrible looking

Pat Wendorf
Fri, 30 Apr 1999 15:35:31 -0400

Tril wrote:

> The Retro project has potential of being a tunes LLL.  If you recall the
> goals of the LLL project, it is a temporary being which will be discarded
> AS SOON AS THE SYSTEM IS BOOTSTRAPPED.  In fact, many members (myself
> included) believe that a LLL is not the way to proceed.  As Fare and I
> have always said, whoever does the work, decides what work is done.  I'm
> still at work in the opposite direction as Tom- starting with HLL first.
> The philosophy of TUNES is that everyone CAN go their own direction.  Is
> it possible that this philosophy is contrary to the very notion most
> people have of an "organization?"  If so, then TUNES IS NOT AN
> ORGANIZATION.  Organizations assume that disorder is natural, then try to
> impose structure on that.  Hence they always fail, because they believe
> entropy is natural, and themselves are unnatural.  Self-destruction is
> inevitable.  The non-organization (such as TUNES) assumes that order is
> natural.  In other words, I believe that with everyone working in his or
> her own direction, THE PROJECT CONVERGES.  This is why I can never claim
> to be speaking on behalf of the project.  It's impossible to try.  The
> TUNES project will still continue, even if ALL the members leave,
> including me, Fare, everyone.  I'm not saying someone else will form a
> tunes organization.  It doesn't need one!  It will happen anyway.  Relax
> and stop trying to impose order on disorder. It has the opposite effect.

I agree completely with this.  But I have had some suggestions
from some members
who will remain anonymous, to go along with the ordered chaos

No more Tunes project.  (gasp)

All I imply is that, instead of being a project why not make it
a discussion group, for all the OS/Lang projects that are out
there (at least the ones that wish to contribute). Simply put,
it would be a place to discuss the concepts we have, and real
projects may or may not form from the discussions.  In essence,
no matter what views we have, or what projects we are working
on, there is a central place to allow us all to discuss.  We
would all be the Tunes group, not the Tunes project.  I only
suggest this in light of the fact that (notwithstanding miracle
or otherworldly event) we will never ALL agree on the same
project goals.

This is not a stretch of the imagination... it's somewhat like
what we have now. I believe as long as we are NOT held here by
the idea of a project, but rather the camaraderie of being
people who want to make computers better, we will at the least
stay in communication... all of us.  That is what is necessary. 
We don't understand everything, some of us don't even have the
time to understand everything, but as long as we communicate,
there is the chance that the OS project convergence CAN happen. 
If you think about it, our
only goal is to make computers better...  if that happens to be
making a 5th generation language, a Linux hack, or a totally OO
OS, we will be able to discuss it here.

In essence, if there is no project, there is no pressure to
create.  There is only the choice to contribute to discussion or
not, and to join one of the efforts. In that way, Brian's
project is a Tunes Sub Project, as is Retro and UniOS. 

I think this is a natural extension to what we have Now.  Tunes
as a center of organization, which may or may not evolve into a
project, based on the work and development of the sub projects.
All members of Tunes do not have to be part of a project, just
part of the mail discussion list.  After that, they can choose
to start a project, or join one, but it would not be mandatory.

I also propose that all the documents and resources from the sub
projects be moved to the main page, in that way everything is
shared.  Trill has a nice server, and it's well suited for the
task at hand. I'm sure this has all been proposed before, but
now, maybe it's the only way to keep all the members.  From last
I was told there are well over 100 of us if we approached other
OS groups for this purpose, we could bring that number much
higher.  In that way, we WOULD be a movement...  We would have
ideas from many different backgrounds, and we would have many
projects to draw from, in many different stages of development.
Last time I checked we're all OpenSource/FreeSource right?

Please keep in mind this is only a suggestion.  Please treat it
as such, we are not going to change overnight (unless everyone
agrees that this is a good idea).

Pat Wendorf
UniOS Group
ICQ: 1503733