Maneesh Yadav 97yadavm@scar.utoronto.ca
Sat, 29 May 1999 17:30:03 -0400 (EDT)

On Sat, 29 May 1999, Birkas Mate wrote:

> Hi, 
> my name is Mate Birkas, and i am new to this list, or i can say i do not
> use to contribute, while i started reading it since a couple of month ago.
> I didn't want to join the conversation until i find that i see clearly the
> state of the TUNES project. Now i think i got a guess about what is going
> on.
> I am working on my own project called mu, and it was not a question, that
> it have a lot to do with TUNES. So i found it very nice, that here or
> around your project people can share their ideas and even work side by
> side, head by head in his or her own(!) computing dream. I think not all
> of these projects will succeed, or survive the hardest years of childhood,
> but i think it would be a big mistake not to listen to each others ideas
> and experiences, even if there are novices around or worse: questions.
> I had very similar feelings and thoughts as Maneesh had while i've read
> the letters in the list, but i really don't get the point, why does any
> others work hurt him (you) so much, even if it's a lower level stuff like
> Retro.

It really doesn't hurt me at all.  But when you see someone going about
something the wrong way with the wrong intentions, and when you know
they're saying stuff that they cannot achieve because they are not
familliar with the problem...it's hard not to stand up and say something.
Tcn is saying that there will be drivers, games and his OS will suppourt
all these wonderful things that new OS should (as cited in my previous
letters) it shows a real ignorance of the field.  He's already defining
his memory mangment scheme, tasking etc; when he hasn't seem to have even
really consider the bigger issues, or the the that no small team will be
able to inpliment them efficiently in some real time span.  As I said,
until you consider the things that are truly challenging (distrbuted,
parallel, portability, GC etc. etc.) this is nothing more than an exercise
in an undergraduate intro to OS's.  Sure TUNES does not have any defined
goals, but there is at least a centeral idea of something that will solve
a lot of problems we see in software today, yet another simple ukernel is
not the answer, and we really can't say right now if it would be even a
part of the answer.

I did make it clear that I have not always been so vocal and harsh on this
list, I'm really a nice guy.  But there are more than a few people here
who are making claims, big claims, and they don't even understand the
fundamentals of what they are talking about, and they know they don't
understand.  I hope that a lot of people can come to this project and
learn, I think that is at least somehting the TUNES project can actually
be proud of.  I've learned (so far only a little) about fields I had no
idea existed.   But when people don't have the humility to understand that
should at least learn a thing or two about whatever the case (OS's formal
mathematics etc.), before spouting up amazing new ideas, it really irks
me.  Everybody is of course allowed to contribute and question, but if you
don't know anything about say catagorey theory, don't stand up and propose
modifications to a model that requires at least a basic understanding of
it.  If we really want to achieve the goals of this project, we have a
to learn, there is a tonne of material about the tools we need, we need
to do some serious researching and weed out paths through what is mostly
academia and weed out what we need.  Working together we can do it.  I
think we should really restate our goals as a group devoted to learning
about the kinds of systems we propose, then when we have accumulated
enough knowledge, we can procede to product.  That's just my opinion

 If you are intrested in more abstract problems, why don't you
> prototype your ideas in your favorite OS and see if some of the related
> projects around TUNES can be used by you. I wouldn't choose Retro as a
> working environment now, but i think it is a big possibility that some
> people are working on it parallel to me. Maybe it's just becouse the
> nature of my project, but i think not just...
> An other point is that criticism can be blessing if it is said and treated
> in the right way, and forgive me if i repeat myself, but i think Maneesh
> has right eyes (not style) for the problems of the project.
> mt
> ps: there is more time than distance